Light from Lima with Angelica Bernabe (#64)
I know that I can't change the world, but at least I want to do something. And that was my motivation. I was tired of being afraid. I was tired of changing my words. This is not a way I want to live. I want to live fully. And of course it wasn't easy. It was a process. And once I did it, I felt free. Now, I can stutter a lot. And I don't care. — Angelica Bernabe
Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
BIO:
Angelica Bernabe is a psychologist and a person who stutters from Peru. Since 2018, is the director of a specialized center for stuttering dedicated to providing training for professionals and treatment for kids, teenagers, and adults who stutter in South America. Also, she is studying at Michigan State University, taking the prerequisite courses prior to the master's degree in Communicate Science and Disorders.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
0:00 - 04:46 Intro
04:46 - 12:53 Stuttering in Central America
12:53 - 19: 37 Rising above self-doubt
19: 37 - 22:52 Voluntary stuttering
22:52 - 26:31 Plans about the future
26:31- 34:32 Stuttering and ADHD
34:32 - 41:07 ADHD in therapy
41:07 - 47:25 self-acceptance and ADHD medication
47:25 - 52:17 The de-stigmatization of medication
52:17 - 53:23 Language exchange
53:23 - 59:00 Perspective taking as an SLP and Outro
RESOURCE LIST
Stamily
MORE QUOTES
As professionals, as parents, it's important not to put our interests into the situation, but really try to hold our own bias. We should bring our experience to bear, but we should make space for the person to be able to choose what's best for them.
- Uri Schneider
We need to de-stigmatize the use of prescription medication for the right people for the right purposes, as much as we need to de-stigmatize neurodiversity and differences of patterns of speech.
- Uri Schneider
TRANSCRIPTION:
Uri Schneider: All right. Well, good morning on this amazing Thursday morning. Buenos dias, wherever you are? We're going to bring out a little bit of my high school Spanish, uh, in honor of our special guest coming in from Lima through angelica and, um, my name is uri Schneider. I lead at Schneider speech and transcending stuttering, and it's a big treat big honor to, um, just get to hear some of the, some of the unique voices . In the crowd from around the world.
Uri Schneider: Sometimes I pinch myself and I say, wow, we're like in this episode 60 something, and we've had a couple people come back more than once, but for the most part, just being able to host conversations with so many different people from so many different places. And I think it's extra special when I was growing up, I had a.
Uri Schneider: Very close family, friends. And she was from Lima, Peru. Um, her father was actually the chief rabbi of Peru, and I always dreamed of getting down to visit Peru. And so it's like on my bucket list to bring my son to do, especially some droning and photography. So hopefully we'll connect there and I know you just came to New York and we just missed each other, but, uh, it's going to happen, but it's a big treat to have you here.
Uri Schneider: I'll give a quick intro and then, uh, we get this thing started and if you're watching this or you're listening, uh, your likes, your comments, your questions, and shares will be amazing just to share Angelica's voice and story and insights. So here's the formal intro, just so you know who you have the presence to be speaking with this morning or listening to this morning.
Uri Schneider: Angelica Bernabe is a psychologist and person who stutters from Peru uh, since 2018, she's the director of a specialized center for stuttering, dedicated to training for professionals as well as treatment for kids, teenagers and adults who stutter in south America. Also, she is stuttering studying. I can't stop getting the word stuttering out of my mouth.
Uri Schneider: Uh, she's studying at Michigan state university taking the prerequisite courses prior to the master's degree in communication, sciences and disorders. Quick, quick joke on getting the wrong words coming out of your mouth. I think many people can relate to that. Um, I certainly can. So recently I was having a conversation with someone from Belgium and they saw a transcending stuttering, and they thought it was transcendental stuttering.
Uri Schneider: That was one thought. And then someone else read it and they thought it was transgendering, stuttering, both of which. Are interesting in their phonological properties, close to transcending stuttering, but mean things, somewhat different. So to those who've made those mistakes. I just want to clarify this is transcending stuttering, and we can talk about what that means, but right now the floor is yours angelica it's great to have you, and I always love to start with what's something you would wish for people to know about you that wasn't in the formal bio?
Angelica Bernabe: i am happy to be in here? It's really a pleasure, um, and something that is not, my bio is I'm also a member of a stamily. I, am a part of the content team too. Working on that, which is very, nice. And another thing that is not in my bio I love traveling.
Angelica Bernabe: Like really it's the thing I love most about my job. and I used to travel
Angelica Bernabe: here in America and now because COVID of course are not possible, but yeah, I, I will return to that after. COVID definitely.
Uri Schneider: What was your favorite or most interesting place that you got to
Angelica Bernabe: here in south America? It's crazy. It's not, that same as other countries, but I get fascinated there. I was doing my best friend and we travel, I don't know, 4. 5 in the countries just with buses
Uri Schneider: wow. Yeah. Costa Rica is definitely on the map for me in central America.
Uri Schneider: I'm gonna check out Ecuador as well.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah, yeah,
Uri Schneider: some of us know things about Peru. Uh, and maybe you could share something that you're proud of, you know, Peru in general, but I'm also interested in what are some of the, as you've traveled and as you're connected to stamily, which is a very international, you know, community of people who stutter, uh, raising awareness and doing all kinds of amazing things.
Uri Schneider: Um, every country, I think every continent, certainly America, Americans think everybody thinks like us, everybody talks like us. Everybody has the same values as us. And I think certainly talked to people in the UK. It's actually been Europe, a few in the middle east, very different, certainly different way of talking and certainly a different way of being. So I would love to hear from you, like, from your perspective, cause you do have a very international. Kind of sense of things. What are some things about Peru or, or more global, you know, more generally continent as it relates to stuttering?
Angelica Bernabe: Well, um, there are still a lot of things to do, because for example, there are some countries that America like, like Bolivia, for example, that doesn't have any, or
Angelica Bernabe: organization about stuttering , like really there's no any organization or et cetera. So there are countries where there are more things to do than order. But for example, Argentina, Argentina has an
Angelica Bernabe: organization about stuttering. And they are simply great. They're very good. They are very famous. They do a lot of things, um, which is really, really great.
Uri Schneider: And then Peru, what's the scene like in Peru? What's uh, are you. You know, what's what kind of other action is going on outside and around what you're doing.
Uri Schneider: And of course, then we can hear more about what you're doing. I'm just curious the ecosystem.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah, definitely. Um, here in Peru it, because we have different organizations for different views to say like that of stuttering. Um, my clinic always work with one that is called well in English is I speak freely and I like to work with them because they have the same deal that you know, that you need to accept yourself.
Angelica Bernabe: You can talk and your message is important. No matter if you stutter or not. Um, and they are very good too. They other active, they organize a lot of things and it's great. But apart from a couple of more like sales groups, and that kind of thing which are nice too. Um, so I guess here, everybody's can decide where to go.
Uri Schneider: So Peru is, is, is better. Um, has a richer ecosystem than let's say Bolivia, Bolivia has more, has more work to do, or, you know, it needs more development to create community and network for people who stutter.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah for example, as I was saying Argentina and their association has a lot of years, they also do an amazing job.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, like, but I don't know how many years they have, but a lot. So that's really great too. Like they were one of the first one in south america . Um, and that's very, very important because they motivate other countries to do the same.
Uri Schneider: Now you've already got your training as a psychologist, you run your organization where you to the training of professionals and you also treat, uh, children, teens, and adults, and now you're going for your degree or your studies in speech therapy.
Uri Schneider: Wow. And you're also a person who stutters and, and it's not to be taken for granted. It's interesting. Many years ago, let's say 20, 25 years ago. Uh, Peter retzes for example, who was the founder of stutter talk and is an extraordinary person, extraordinary therapist, an extraordinary friend. Uh, he was going to grad school and he's a person who stutters and the grad school that he attended said, look, part of the program besides taking the courses is you've got to do that speech correction.
Uri Schneider: We can't have a speech therapist who stutters and, um, Peter being who he is, um, really blazed the path and didn't take that lightly and made sure to bring a lot of attention to that issue. And today it's become very common. And it's an asset, I think, to have so many people who are professional colleagues, both in the research.
Uri Schneider: And on the clinical side, who also know it from their lived experience as people who stutter. I know it's not like that everywhere. It's not like that in other parts of the world. So I'm curious for you being as accomplished as you are both in terms of your degrees and also your activity. What's the sense of that in Peru?
Uri Schneider: What's the sense of that in south America? How has that kind of evolved for you?
Angelica Bernabe: Well, um, , here in Peru especially, it's a big difference in studying speech therapy in that. Um, it's not like Argentina or Brazil or Colombia that almost every university has the, um, a degree in speech therapy, um, here actually only have like three universities or two in the whole country.
Angelica Bernabe: So I think for that reason
Angelica Bernabe: seeing me, I don't need that. You'd get therapy, um, then university this year. Um, but yeah, I have that different, um, countries, for example. I was talking, wait, um, oh, I, I think my internet gets lost for a second.
Uri Schneider: I think we managed, it's not the, um, I call it like, uh, digital stuttering, you know, there's like little hiccups just gotta hang in there.
Uri Schneider: Um, it's worth the wait. So no worries. Listen. The fact that I I've been saying to my friends, like, can you imagine if, um, if the world was going to go through COVID, but we didn't have zoom and we didn't have even Skype, like imagine doing all this on like conference calls or even having Skype, but no zoom where you can't bring in a third person.
Uri Schneider: It's a beautiful thing that we have this technology and it helps us remember how precious and special it is that I can connect with you in Lima, Peru, and that we can have any connection is amazing. So the fact that there's a little crackle, we'll take it.
Angelica Bernabe: You all right.
Uri Schneider: Um, but I think we heard most of it.
Uri Schneider: I did miss the one part about, you said it was something special about Peru in particular. Um, and I, if you want it to re reiterate that, because I don't think I was able to get that.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah. Countries that we don't have a lot of options to be a speech therapist in a certain degree, and here we only have three options in the whole country, so that's, there are very minimal and I seen the, also another reason why I only have seen, I don't know, comments saying you shouldn't have studied this or that because our options are very limited.
Uri Schneider: And in terms of rising up in, in schooling and doing what you have done psychology or opening a clinic to train and to do therapy. Um, many people who stutter, who become professionals, whether it's in banking and also in education or therapy, sometimes they worry, what will people say when people come to me for help and, and, and they hear, I might have a stutter and that was a pseudo stutter.
Uri Schneider: Just want to be open. Uh, I don't stutter, but like, you know, there's this thought, what if I'm going to meet this person, they hear I stutter, what are they going to think? So what's your experience been with that in Peru and maybe personally.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah. Um, is exactly the same. Can we have a lot of people that have been going that, um, they are afraid of be what they want to be, and it's worse if they, after that they have, I don't know some teachers at university that actually say them, you can beat it.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, personally, well, I always wanted to be a speech therapist. Um, it is different because when I started with this, when I was, I mean, when I say the first time
Angelica Bernabe: Of course now it's completely different. I know that that little white, oh my God, my internet.
Uri Schneider: Listen, like, I think this is an awesome exercise for us to all appreciate auditory processing. And the amazingness is here. Here's a little, a little speech therapy geeking out over here. Did you ever notice that when you're on the phone and you get a call waiting like a click in your ear, so for a moment you're having one conversation and you get a click, you keep listening to the person and you often don't miss a beat.
Uri Schneider: That's amazing what's happening there. So the brain is kind of filling in the space. And so we can do the same thing here, by the way, another little beautiful thing about speech and the other side of speech is listening and processing is that, uh, as we're talking here, certainly when I listened to Spanish, which is a beautiful language.
Uri Schneider: You hear a string of words with no break between words, no break between sentences and the same is true in English, French, Italian, whatever the brain is listening to a consistent flow of speech flow, a sound wave that basically is continuous with a couple voiced voiceless, but it's a continuous thought.
Uri Schneider: The brain slices the whole thing up into words and sentences. There's no commas or periods in the auditory signal. So the brain, and it's an amazing thing. It can take a continuous signal and slice it up and make sense of it. It can also take a imperfect signal and make it good enough. And I think there's something there that we're wired to do that, you know, we're also wired to start freaking out when we hear something that feels imperfect or lacking fidelity.
Uri Schneider: But if we get over that, that's just a story. So how did you do that Angelica and how did you rise above. That fear of others, what will they think? What will they want to do with me? What won't they want to do with me? What, what was important for you and your journey to get to that point? Like you said, it's not like that anymore.
Uri Schneider: You're in a, you do what you do, but sure. That was there and that's there for other people. What was helpful to you in that journey to overcome?
Angelica Bernabe: Um, well, I was, um, at the beginning I had a lot of bad experiences with older as a speech therapist. Um, they used to teach me a lot of things that are not updated, like old things, you know, to breathe and that kind of things.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, So I was tired and I was very decided that I wanted to do something to change that as I was saying I know that I can't change the world. Um, but at least I want to do something. And that was my motivation. And there was a moment when I said to myself. Okay. Um, I'm tired of being afraid. I'm tired of changing my words.
Angelica Bernabe: This is not a way I want to live. I want to live fully. And of course it wasn't easy. It wasn't too, it wasn't taken only one day, but it was a process. And once I, I said myself now, I, I feel free. You know, it's like, I don't, I can stutter a lot. And I don't care. I don't like using techniques.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, but I feel really good at stuttering. I mean, it's not that I feel bad or something like that, so I never use techniques. Um, and yeah, I'm very happy now.
Uri Schneider: So was it just one day you woke up and you said that's it I'm flipping a switch or was there, was there something that kind of grew inside of you or someone who kind of put an idea in your mind that that was possible?
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah. Um, well, one thing that helped me a lot was to start reading about stuttering. Um, for example, the first time I went to a conference, I was 16 years old or 17 years old. Then I went to a conference about stuttering . Um, so I started to read, I started to do some research about what is this and knowing more about it.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, helped me to because , I don't know. I started to discover more things that or the causes of stuttering. And so that made me relief. Okay. It's not my fault. Um, and I also met a , met people. I always said that one of the persons that helped me, um, of this process, Gonzalo from Portugal from working , I met him in, uh, conference here in Lima and we spent some days together.
Angelica Bernabe: He taught me to do voluntary stuttering . Is that I never had heard that before. Um, and yeah, he helped me, um, those days do. And I remember those days, till now, I remember when he left, I cry with my mom because I was like, I want to be a speech therapist. I, this is what I want to do.
Uri Schneider: Shout out to Gonzalo in Portugal. What a beautiful image, beautiful story. Just today. Uh, there's a speech therapist is in our transcending stuttering cohort community. And I saw she posted on, uh, live an international group of speech, language pathologists abroad from around the world, that 30,000 people there it's amazing group.
Uri Schneider: She was asking, trying to help an adult person who stutters and, uh, they don't stutter in the office. They don't stutter in their meetings, their appointments where they're coming to get help for stuttering. And they don't stutter there. Now, for those of us in the know, this isn't surprising, but for someone who is not in the know, it's like, wow.
Uri Schneider: Yeah, you do. And it's kind of the same thing with parents bring children. And they're like, how are you going to be able to help us? Because we're worried that when we come on that day, They're not going to be stuttering, and then you won't believe us, or you won't be able to help us. So stick with the adult for a second.
Uri Schneider: The question posed, and I'd love your input, uh, from the inside and what you know, and what you do and what your thoughts would be. So the speech therapist is saying, we try to do some voluntary stuttering in the office. Um, didn't seem to go anywhere. It was hard for them to do it. Um, and the person is really interested in interviewing and concerns about interviewing for jobs.
Uri Schneider: So they tried to do some simulation, which I thought was an excellent idea. Excellent. And I think she's really on the right track. And I tried to offer some suggestions. I was wondering what you would say, an adult. Who's looking to get more comfortable communicating for situations like interviews, and they're not stuttering in the office and simulating it where the therapist pretends to be the interviewer just wasn't doing it.
Uri Schneider: I don't know any thoughts or based on your experiences
Angelica Bernabe: um, you know, Uri this varies for each person. And I mean, that's another amazing thing about stuttering. It's not like you can say, okay, for those who want to do an interview, let's do this on that clinic and he will be fine there. Some people will, but others not. And, and even if you do this role play in stuff, um, anyway, some people would get very, I don't know, nervous will stutter more, during their interviews?
Angelica Bernabe: Um, and it's crazy how this varies, uh, for each person and yeah, at the end, the therapists need to do what the person needs is if the person has still difficulties, do we do it in real life? Okay. Let's go with them let's find a person that's doing a different place. Um, things like that. Um, because at the end by ability, you know, I hear that Boca would set, which was amazing.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, and yeah, this varies and at the end we see what our client needs and work according to that, I'm sure you know that.
Angelica Bernabe: Totally,
Uri Schneider: totally. So, um, yeah. What else can you tell us about, you know, what you're seeing happening? I'm so interested in, you know, what's the pulse of, what's really strong already where you are and what you're doing and what are some of the things that you're looking forward to learning more as you pursue in your studies?
Uri Schneider: Kind of drawing from maybe things happening in north America or things happening in Europe.
Angelica Bernabe: I have a lot of dreams and, um, next year I'm going to move to the USA. And my plan is to stay in the USA and live there, you know, make a life there for the rest of my life. Maybe, um, started to work there. I was talking with Scott when I was in Louisiana and we were talking about the science and I was saying my biggest, right.
Angelica Bernabe: One of my biggest dream is to be a teacher at university in the USA. And I mean, with a course of a stuttering, of course, is like, I see myself doing that in a lot of years. And I really, um, looking forward to it, I want to work in research in a university someday there too. I want to have my own. practice in the USA to someday.
Angelica Bernabe: So yeah, I have a lot of dreams for my future. All of them in the USA. Uh, I, I know that it's an amazing country to study stuttering and to work with stuttering. And of course, keep the work on my clinic number likely because I have an amazing team. I always say that my clinic wouldn't be what it is today without them.
Angelica Bernabe: And I'm sure they will keep that great work they are doing already while I'm not here. Um, so, but yeah, I have lots of dreams. I have to do a lot of things in, well, I hope things get well,
Uri Schneider: well, listen, you got all your friends chiming in. I could just tell you, uh, you know, all these people from around the world, there's chiming in insane.
Uri Schneider: Wow. Angelica is a rock star. That's Tom. Scharfstein no surprise there. And then you've got your crew from the UK, Elizabeth Rosenbaum, giving you a lot of props, and then you've got all your peeps from south America and around Fernanda and Cynthia and Gareth from Belgium. Of course. Um, so I think it's pretty safe to say in angelica that it's not a question of, if this question of when and, um, I would love to challenge you with kind of like the dream question, which we often do in the beginning of like a therapy encounter.
Uri Schneider: So let's say that that's happening, you know? Okay. Boom. The dream is you're going to be teaching in university, doing research. You're going to be having a practice. What do you want to teach them? What do you want to research? Like, do you have an idea of once you're there, what would be an interest of yours that you feel uniquely committed to or unique passion to advance forward.
Angelica Bernabe: I really liked the line of research that have in MSU in Michigan state university, the line of research of, okay. We have worked for a lot of years seeing what others think about stuttering. So now let's get focused on work, on what the person who stutters thinks and feel. And I mean, to be most focused on them, rather on what those who stutter see .
Angelica Bernabe: I think that's very important and very important switch that Scott and Seth in all the team at MSU. Um, have done. I liked that line of research. I also have ADHD, so that's also a big motivation to me to do more research on that.
Uri Schneider: you me and John Gomez. I think we're the only three people that have been on the podcast that have add.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah. Right.
Uri Schneider: If I left anybody out, just letting you know, we believe in inclusivity. So if you'd like to be included in our club, you're welcome to choose, to identify, just put your, um, put ADHD into your profile.
Uri Schneider: Yeah.
Angelica Bernabe: Yeah. You know, that's another very interesting topic, um, that I will like to work with. Um, stuttering and ADHD, I have worked with children the same for three or four years. So, uh, it is the same. I'm very interested on ?, uh, a, um, a stuttering. I like a lot about the psychological impact, because for example, I have read a lot of, uh, well in a lot of what some research about the medication for ADHD in those who stutter, but I know how I was taking medication for that and suddenly it impact how I feel it was very hard to, so, uh, but I, haven't read a lot of that part.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, and again, it's about how we feel, what we think of that, um, how it can be more challenging and. I think I would go in that way.
Uri Schneider: Wow. Well, the world is, is on the edge of their seats. Um, I'd love to hear more, you know, just as a reference to some earlier episodes, talk to Joe Donaher , uh, who's considered as one of the foremost people who's, who's done a lot of the groundbreaking work on, on stuttering and ADHD.
Uri Schneider: We talked with, uh, Dr. Jerry Maguire about, uh, also he's a person who stutters and also, you know, psychiatry, neuroscience, the brain ADHD. What's your personal experience and kind of your thoughts for people that do share both, uh, stuttering and ADHD or parents or people who are interested in this topic.
Uri Schneider: Like what are some, what are some of your thoughts before we, we get your published peer reviewed journal publishing, which will be coming. And we'll enjoy pouring over, but what are some of the, you know, first of all, experiences or insights off, you know, off the record, so to speak?
Angelica Bernabe: Well, I was diagnosed .
Angelica Bernabe: with stuttering at first, the diagnosis of ADHD came later, but of course my family wasn't surprised actually they, I mean, my mom felt like, okay, we always knew that. And, but that was, um, more difficult to me because I was, I received a formal diagnosis after, um, I have accepted my stuttering. So to me it was very, um, hard, not in a way of, I feel bad because I have ADHD because I is not in that way.
Angelica Bernabe: I was frustrated in a way, and I couldn't understand, well, well, those feelings of they just happen, um, the way off, um, I there, you know, there are some good people outside, but are also bad people and they hear that you have different conditions, they talk different things. So I didn't want that for me. And in some ways, some people know me for my job.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, so I, I didn't one, I don't know to hear, bad comments in that. So I feel frustrated, not only for me, but for others. And at the same time I was trying to remind myself, but okay. Ok Angelica you know, that this not had to be in that way and you know, that they don't say and here, I just say that it's called, West's a person who helped me a lot.
Angelica Bernabe: accept my ADHD, like really, I don't have words to, to describe all of the help he provide to me. And I be very happy for that. I'm very grateful that always. Um, because after that, now I can say that I accept , my ADHD, it's still difficult, I have to say because there are more days when I really need to do something and my brain doesn't want to cooperate or some busy when, even with medication medication isn't perfect.
Angelica Bernabe: And this is something that I had to learn because I thought, okay. Since I started with my medication I will be great, but medication for ADHD, like a speech thing makes for a stuttering are not perfect. Sometimes they work, sometimes they not. And I didn't know that. So that was another big, important thing that I have to learn.
Angelica Bernabe: And I was saying, why somebody didn't tell me this before but yeah, I have to learn that. And that's fine is just how, how the brain. So if that's what needs to be more, uh, good with ourself and don't be that hard. So I had to work on that too. Um, you know, and there's some brain, what he wants to take a rest, even if it's 3:00 PM.
Angelica Bernabe: And so, yeah, it's the way it is. And I mean, I'm happy because it had also good things like one reason that I feel that helped me to work on my clinic and to be active and be very creative and, you know, develop new things. I, I feel that it's because of that, I feel that my ADHD like pushing me in that way, um, give me more energy and, you know, to do that kind of things.
Angelica Bernabe: And I'm very passionate with stuttering.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. So many things to say about that. Um, I mean, first of all, a lot of comments coming in, including from our own team, um, getting some private messages saying and felt like it was awesome. Like they, they, they did, they didn't know the forest that you are, and they're just enjoying watching this live. Uh, so thank you.
Uri Schneider: And it doesn't take long to, to become one of your fans, you know, you're very, very impressive person. Um, yeah, the ADHD thing, I think one of the things I learned in grad school from our mentor, the late great. Uh, Dr. Joel stark at Queens college, he would say, what a stupid name for a diagnosis, attention deficit disorder, or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Uri Schneider: Try to try to explain what that means. Do you have an attention deficit, but then you watch people like Angelica or others, or maybe me, you, you know, with things you're interested in, you have an abundance of attention. You have more attention, you can focus in a way that's super human. It's just, you can't attend to the things that don't interest you and don't grab your attention.
Uri Schneider: Uh, so it's more like an attention regulation challenge, but for the things you're interested in, it's usually in abundance. I think if you know someone who has add, or you are a person, or you are a teacher just to rethink it, because then I think you can change this disorder, this diagnosis and recognize there's a superpower.
Uri Schneider: There, there is a kryptonite, there's a blind spot. But there's a superpower. If you learn how to channel it and you do great things, I was sharing with Angelica just came off a first meeting with, uh, uh, parents of a young child who stuttering. And in addition to looking at the stuttering through seeing some video clips of the child at home four or five video clips, one or two minutes at length, we were able to see the child in their natural environment, in their most expressive, communicative, you know, demonstration of self.
Uri Schneider: And what came out was wow. What a firecracker of a girl, what a bright chatty smart like way beyond what you would expect from a child that age that you could also see a certain irritability, a certain sensitivity when her brother would start talking, he didn't do anything wrong, but she became distraught that her brother was taking the mic.
Uri Schneider: And in a way it was his turn to get the mic, but the idea of temperament and personality. And the way that this girl was like monitoring and trying to control. So many of the variables in her space was excessive. And so in addition to talking about what can we do to help her continue to enjoy talking?
Uri Schneider: We had to think about, well, how could we help her not be, uh, overly sensitive and overly, uh, aware of different things. And so we started talking about things that are way outside of the speech domain, but are very much a part of it. Um, what do you think of when you're working with young people or thinking about whether it's autism, as you talked about, whether it's ADD, you talked about, uh, would you like to just share like an example of something that's a consideration either that you're interested in, in research or that you see in your clinic as something that could share?
Uri Schneider: Yeah. Um, and then it's about medication for ADHD . Um, and I mean, in, in those like why me who is stutter, um, another important thing to consider it's well, I am a psychologist. I was seen on the psychological impact. So I don't want to paint. Another idea to keep in mind is about the impact that has the fight of taking the medicine.
Uri Schneider: And because there are some people, it also happens to me that feels bad of having to take a medicine to do the things that others can do. Oh, Okay. I will keep talking. Um, because as I was saying, there are some people that can feel bad or can feel less than other for me, uh, medicine, um, to, I don't know, to pay more attention in some things.
Uri Schneider: Um, so that's another important fact too, to take into consideration is, is not the part, which is also important of either person will stutter or more or not is just how this medication is affecting the person. And well, first of all, if it's affecting the person, um, because again that some things, uh, I have seen myself, um, and in a couple of other persons too, I haven't met a lot of adults.
Uri Schneider: Uh who stutter and, in that have ADHD. I have met more. Children, but the few people that I have met, I have seen that. And I think that's an another important thing to , to keep in mind.
Uri Schneider: That is so interesting. So you're talking about the, the layer of not only how the medication might mitigate or change or exacerbate the physical behavior of stuttering, but just the idea of being on medication and, and the human relationship with like, oh, I take a medication to help me attend or regulate my attention.
Uri Schneider: What does that mean about me? And what does that mean? That I need a pill or that I take a pill. Can you share a little bit more about that? I think that's an interesting.
Angelica Bernabe: In my case, for example was different because I had fully accepted my stuttering. So to be able to and when I started with medication, I didn't even care if I was stuttering less or more.
Angelica Bernabe: I really didn't care at all that I was curious to see that, but I was like, I really don't care. if I stutter more or less. Um, but just in my year, a teenager is to see on the process of accepting ourselves. And it has to take a to medicine that that person will feel very anxious, nervous will feel what if I stutter more, they will have started to create and imagine future situations.
Angelica Bernabe: And what if at the end? Yeah, he or she is stutters more there's more for the , um, that he will feel very bad. Stop, uh, he'll want to stop the medication at the same time. He would feel that he needs it. So it's a lot of, uh, again, psychological things to, to take into consideration. And also, um, the medication for ADHD is not always friendly, you know, at the beginning, I mean to me, and I know again, that this happens to, a lot of people, you feel a bit sick um, you feel, um, I don't know.
Angelica Bernabe: Do you feel dizzy you don't want to eat? So they have a lot of, uh, themes that are far of the secondary effects of the medication. I lost weight when I started to take my medication for ADHD, because I didn't know what to, to eat. Um, so there are a lot of things happen and you know, it's not just.
Angelica Bernabe: If the person will have stutter less, more, which is important of saying that is not, but there are also a lot of things related to the medication, that person, that client, that clincian need to take into consideration. And I don't know, in courses that the teacher needs to mention those things too. It's not just this speech.
Angelica Bernabe: It's a lot of things happening at the same time and a person can feel very overwhelmed, overwhelmed. So it's important to mention that.
Uri Schneider: Yeah. And I think it's, can we, can we go into this a little bit? I think this is really a personal interest and I think it's a, of timely relevant, um, you know, you talked about the stuttering, it didn't bother you.
Uri Schneider: You were at a point where the stuttering behavior was not of interest or concern. So one could ask. So what was the purpose of the medication and why were you entertaining taking the medication to begin with? And again, this, just to be clear, we're talking about medication for ADHD, but what's interesting to me is I think that it's a, it's an amazing thing.
Uri Schneider: When a person gets to a place of self-acceptance and of self of loving oneself just as you are. And that is not an absolute that's, what's interesting to me that you can kind of achieve that in one area and in another area, you can have a different place or a different feeling or different relationship with that.
Uri Schneider: And then you can also have a very fluid experience where on a given day, on a given week, in a given situation, you're very much at ease and feel like you're just perfectly perfect as you are imperfect. Uh, and in another situation, a specific situation or context, you might feel like, you know what? I am still awesome.
Uri Schneider: And for this situation I want to, I want things to be done differently. I want to handle myself differently than I do in that other one. So it's for the moment, let's just talk about why would you be taking a medication for ADHD? What were your hopes, what was your rationale as compared to a stuttering?
Uri Schneider: It was kind of like I accepted as it is just the way I talk. It doesn't interest me to mitigate change or really worry about it much at all. Whereas with the ADHD, what was it that drove you to say? I I'd like to see if this medication can help me. What was that difference?
Angelica Bernabe: Well, um, I started to take them making sure because I started the university in Michigan.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, and I mean, in general it was somewhat difficult to focus, but having to say the lessons in English. Um, like, you know, there was like a more complicated and without the medication my head was tired of studying in two hours. So the doctor told me, okay, you don't really need it because it was different than studying in a Spanish.
Angelica Bernabe: Um, the it's easier to me is not that difficult because it's my first language, but in English it was hard. Um, so that's why I have to, I have to, I don't take it everyday because I don't like it. Um, and when I have to study, I take it and. That was another accepted process. I needed this medication, even if I don't want to.
Angelica Bernabe: And, and, but, but yet to me, it, it doesn't affect my fluency, my stuttering. Um, and to be honest, as I said, I wasn't very worried about it either. Um, but I know that, I mean, this is just me now. There are some people that have their stuttering, but even of the day don't feel, I don't know, they can feel different if they, for the medication, it stutter more and they probably want to go to therapy again.
Angelica Bernabe: And that's fine. You know, um, as had, I will say is stuttering and is not the same for everybody. Um, every person has different experiences or in person wants to do different things with their life. And at the end if the person is happy then it's fine. Um, uh, so yeah, I, I think if someone wants to accept their stuttering, but even, but because of the medication is stutter more and the person wants to go to therapy, it's fine.
Angelica Bernabe: Like, it's just part of the process. Anyway, it's part of being a person who stutters.
Uri Schneider: So it sounds like it's, we're not going to name who, but somebody lecture at Michigan state university was giving you a headache, but we won't say who. And I'm just joking. I have said before, Michigan as a state has somehow emerged as the epicenter, the concentration of the number of exceptional colleagues and academics and instructors in the state of Michigan is, is somewhat through the roof.
Uri Schneider: And I'm not going to name names cause I don't want to leave anybody off, but it's not only Michigan state university. And it's not only Western Michigan hope Gurlack, it's not only, uh, Wayne state, um, you know who you are. Um, and each of these people have also been on the podcast. So somebody was giving you a headache.
Uri Schneider: But I think your point is well said that the symptom of suddenly being in university, listening to lectures in English that required a much higher demand on your concentration and processing and regulation and filtering and just calories burnt. Right? Um, it was a different demand. And so therefore it was giving you headaches and you wanted to deal with it and you didn't write off the possibility of considering something, which I think also has a healthy message where people like consider things don't come in with anything being off the table, um, and working with the right guide, the right professional, whether it's dealing with choices about medication or choices about different things you can do in therapy.
Uri Schneider: whether its working on the tolerance and acceptance of self just as it is, or whether it's working on strategies that, that things should be presented. I think as professionals, I think as parents, it's important not to put our interests, you know, into the situation, but really try to hold our own bias, our own experience to some degree, obviously not to put, put it aside, we should bring our experience to bear, but we should make space for the person, whoever it is, our child, our clients, our students, whoever it might be that they'd be able to choose what's best for them.
Uri Schneider: And we're there to steer clear of guardrails. So they shouldn't go off a cliff. but that we should give people a chance to choose their path. For me, I'll just share similarity and a counter story. Um, I just, I want people to know that not all medications feel sick at the beginning. Um, I've done like three different ADD medications that I've had to change more out of a change of supply or different sorts of things.
Uri Schneider: Um, so Adderall and Conserta are my drugs of choice by prescription only. Um, I'm also a big fan of Pfizer for the vaccine. Um, it, it pinches, it's got a pinch in the beginning, but a smooth finish. Um, so the easy meds for me have been a game changer. Like before that I would walk around campus and everyone knew it's kind of and high school for that matter.
Uri Schneider: It's kind of amazing that I did as well as I did, which wasn't exceptional, but I did well, but the part of me that didn't do as well as I could have done, had a lot to do with waves of fatigue. And I had a gift for falling asleep in lecture. I would like at whiplash because my head was, I started going back and I'd like, catch it, or it would go down, uh, bad news then.
Uri Schneider: And I would even take a nap, a daily nap at like two o'clock the grass and the quad outside of the library, just my back, back and kick back. And it was only later when I realized part of add, has to do with the regulation and waves of, uh, fatigue and arousal. And it was like, wow, everybody gets a little bit of like a hit of exhaustion a certain Wednesday, but I was getting it like two waves, midnight morning and mid-afternoon, and there was no, I didn't see how to get through it with the meds.
Uri Schneider: It leveled that. And I was able to function more like a laser beam, like choosing a task and boom, and whether it was something I was interested in or not. Um, it really just the meds. And then I think for people who are considering meds, especially with younger people, the importance of doing it daily and routine, because part of the thing with people they need to.
Uri Schneider: It's like some impulsivity and some like rationalizing of all sorts of things. So for young people who might need parents and adults to create the structures around it, I would say that you should consult with your prescribing physician, but I'm a big proponent of not, not trying to only medicate as needed, but trying to set it up as a routine so that you can achieve consistent success.
Uri Schneider: Because for young people, the performance inconsistency of learning disabilities and of ADD is extremely frustrating because you know, you're smart enough, but then you underperformed and the world tells you you're a failure. And you're like, I think I'm good enough. So either I'm crazy or they're crazy, but someone's off over here.
Uri Schneider: So giving a person a chance to have performance consistency to some degree. And then of course, Uh, I think considering any and all options to be able to create that success in the most natural way possible. So if one can think about sleep fitness, diet, and other routines and other things that can be helpful in mindfulness, um, by all means, but for those that find that meds are helpful or that they're necessary, I think we need to, de-stigmatize the use of prescription medication for the right people for the right purposes, as much as we need to de-stigmatize, you know, neurodiversity and differences of patterns of speech.
Uri Schneider: So we, we hear a lot about that. Let's be more open and inclusive to neurodiversity people who might talk differently. People who might look, walk, learn, behave, socialize differently. Let's not throw out or we're not consider normalizing. And de-stigmatizing the use of prescription medication in the right places in the right ways.
Uri Schneider: Um, what would be some closing thoughts? This is like opening worlds and I'm sorry for the digression, perhaps. It's my ADD, but that was an awesome connection. Thanks for taking us there. Um, you can also test my Spanish if you want. I did kind of make a teaser for that. I'll test your Hebrew. You could test my Spanish, English, whatever you want, but I have so much respect.
Uri Schneider: I just want to say to be someone who hails from Peru and do this in English and to do so much of what you do, not in your native language. First of all, it takes a lot of courage and then to talk about wanting to do, to be an instructor and researcher and practitioner in another country. I think that says a lot about.
Uri Schneider: What you're made of, you know, so, you know, pat power to you and, uh, yeah. Lots of gratitude. Yeah. Closing thoughts or a Spanish test. Bring it on.
Angelica Bernabe: I only, well, I used to know more words in Hebrew, but I think, I only remember L'Chaim, I think he's like cheers or something like that.
Uri Schneider: If you're gonna know one word that is going to get you far, because by the time you say that a couple of times everybody's a little bit off their rocker and suddenly the words don't matter.
Uri Schneider: So yeah.L'Chaim is cheers on a beverage or something. It also means to life, right? So like to life too,
Uri Schneider: Yo hablo poquito espanol a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've been associated, but no, especially it was Russian. I got, I got like, I can like get by with like four exchanges of hello. How are you in like about five different languages and that's what I need the next sentence is like, no. I don't really speak that.
Uri Schneider: That's all I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Angelica Bernabe: I used to know more words in Hebrew too. I have friends there. Um, but I really don't remember right now.
Uri Schneider: Some, uh, some closing wisdom, some parting words, if you could share, um, for the world, you know, you're, you're real. You're, you're somebody and the world needs to hear more from you. What would it be that the banner, the ad that you would want them to hear leaving today is leaving today's conversation?
Angelica Bernabe: I always like to talk about acceptance. Um, and aside I would say is not only acceptance of the person who stutters is acceptance of the clinician too uh, when some people ask me, I want to work with clients who stutter, where should I start? I will say, okay, you need to accept the stutter first. And I really believe that that be the main step for therapies for stuttering before working with people who stutter, or that the clinician needs to accept the stutter first, how we are going to model acceptance if we don't accept it first.
Angelica Bernabe: so that's something very important i always want to mention that. I always try to mention, and I think one of the most important things to do to see if a clinician accepts the stuttering to do some voluntary stuttering. And I asked to my students a couple of months ago to, to do that. They are like 45 and 43.
Angelica Bernabe: Oh, the 45 told me that they didn't feel good doing that. And they are taking in courses to be, to, to work with local stutterers. So it's like, okay, you need to practice this until you feel completely well and be fine and normal because will work with clients, will do how you are going to tell them it's stuttering is okay.
Angelica Bernabe: You can start early if you can. stutter really. So I O I to Brenda, topic into your muscles, like conversations I have, because there's something that clinician, the psychologist, the speech therapist, uh, psychiatric or webinars, a person that is working, um, you have to take into consideration and that it's not bad.
Angelica Bernabe: stuttering is not a good, it's just a different way to talk. I hear that from personal hold. Um, And that's, that's something important and a big start for those who want to work with people who stutter.
Uri Schneider: Boom. Well, um, I'm gonna put myself on the volunteer list. We can create a whole team around the world for speech therapists who are having a hard time doing pseudo stuttering and need to learn how to stutter.
Uri Schneider: Um, I'd be happy to be, uh, a person who doesn't stutter, but I think, I think I do a decent job of pseudo stuttering and happy to help other of my colleagues. But I think it's a good segue also to, um, yeah, this whole transcending stuttering cohort for SLPs, um, which is this international community of clinicians who are looking to be exceptional guides for people who stutter.
Uri Schneider: And one of the things we really focus on is what you just said, making sure that anything that any professional is going to ask of a young person. Or of a parent or of a teen or adult. They gotta be walking the walking, the walk, not just talking to talk and, uh, able to do and to push themselves in the same way that they're inviting others to.
Uri Schneider: And it changes the whole dynamic and it's so much more authentic. So when in fact, like I just said, I think is important for all of us also as parents to one of the most powerful exercises we've had is in addition to the pseudo stuttering, having clinicians or parents consider the other perspective and consider what are some reasonable reasons why this person is resistant to do what you would like them to do.
Uri Schneider: You know, I want you to practice this three times a day, blah, blah, blah. I want you to try to raise your hand more in class. I want you to try, like, let's think for a second, put yourself in the shoes of that person, whoever they are. And instead of getting annoyed at their lack of compliance, some perspective taking, right?
Uri Schneider: Like, Hmm. I wonder why. Well, number one, maybe it's like a big ask. Maybe they have add, maybe they have a busy schedule. Maybe it just doesn't bother them the way it bothers you. Maybe they don't see why it's ever going to help or be practical. Maybe it's like an incredibly exhausting exercise and they get a headache when they're done.
Uri Schneider: Okay. But being curious about that on your own inquiring on the other side, as opposed to trying to push something through is a game changer. So as a parent or as a professional a great\ question to ask the person on the other side, who's not being compliant. I'm wondering, you know, I see you're not doing X and I'm wondering what's up, what's up teach me, like, help me understand why this doesn't make sense or this isn't happening.
Uri Schneider: And, uh, so much can come out of that. First of all, the, the adult parents therapists who have. Can become more informed. And sometimes she, that conversation actually also opens a door for both people to take a big step forward, because until there's that shared understanding, there's this glass wall and everyone just keeps bumping into it.
Uri Schneider: Um, and you're like, this is awesome. Awesome.
Angelica Bernabe: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to have had this conversation with you and with those who join us, um, so thank you. Thank you all the time.
Uri Schneider: Well, just looking at all the comments and likes, it's clear that, uh, it seems geographically a very strong contingent from south America has followed you here.
Uri Schneider: And, uh, other international friends from the U S from the UK, from Canada and around the world. So thank you so much for this. This has been so informative, insightful, and I can't wait for our next conversation.
Angelica Bernabe: Definitely, definitely in the USA or Israel
Uri Schneider: or wherever we meet first. And it's an airport lounge. You name it.
Uri Schneider: It might be zoom. It might be zoom. I'll take whatever I can get because you're going places and a busy person. So thanks for this. And if you enjoyed it, please check out the podcast. Transcending, stuttering, subscribe, drop a review. It will help this conversation and future conversations, reach the world.
Uri Schneider: Um, thank you so much and have a beautiful day